The Physicist’s Proof: Mastering Entropy Reduction! With Thomas W. Campbell

Thomas W. Campbell 0:00

I was introduced to Robert Monroe, and he had just built a lab and wanted to study consciousness. He wanted to understand his out of body experiences. I learned how to do all the paranormal things I could go out of body whenever I wanted to any of the paranormal things I did, like if I were remote doing or healing, or mind to mind communications, if I change the variable the way I approach it, just all the variables that are there and see what affected what I have multiple times been with a person who was dying, attach my mind to their mind, and then just follow them through the process. So you can just be part of their all all consciousness is netted, and that includes your dogs and cats, as well as other people. You can connect to a consciousness, feel what they feel, see what they see.

Jannecke Øinæs 0:47

You're not like an ordinary physicist and

Speaker 1 0:58

Tom Campbell a warm welcome to the Wisdom From North show.

Thomas W. Campbell 1:03

Well, I'm happy to be here. Information is wonderful all by itself, but shared information is much better. So that's what we're both doing, is trying to help others understand and hear, perhaps something that will help them in their life.

Jannecke Øinæs 1:22

That's true. And I've heard of your name for so many years, and I can't believe we're finally here. You are a former nuclear physicist. You've been researching consciousness for so many years, and then you are the author of the series, my big toe, The Theory of Everything, and that's what you're most known for, and I'm really excited to go into the theory of everything and learn more about the universe today. But before we do that, I'm always curious about how my guests are getting into this journey all of a sudden, becoming so interested and passionate about consciousness and spirituality. So could you share a little bit about your journey?

Thomas W. Campbell 2:03

Well, my journey actually started when I was very young. When I was seven years old, I had entities come to me, and while I was not quite fallen asleep yet, but lying in bed in that twilight zone before you fall into sleep. And they introduced themselves, and they got me out of my body, and they let me play with that for a while, and I did, and it was a lot of fun being able to fly through walls and across the yard and those kinds of things. So they then put me in a training course where they taught me how to get around in the in the larger consciousness system, and what other people would call the non physical, and I did, and eventually they turned all that off because they said they didn't want me to grow up too weird, because that would not be good. I'd love to end up in an institution, and then that wouldn't be helpful. They had other plans for me, so it got shut down. And then the next time that I go on, I get my degrees in physics, and I get a master's degree, and I'm working on a PhD. So that kind of jarred my world, because by then, I'd forgotten all the earlier stuff I'd done as a young child, and now suddenly I'm interested again, because I'm a physicist, and what physicists do is model reality. That's our job, and here I just discovered a whole nother set of reality that had to do with consciousness. And it was like, Wow, I'm here. I am a physicist working on modern reality, and that's just a small chunk of reality. There's another reality that's larger than that. It's as big as consciousness. And then within I left the university, took took a job, and within six months of in that new job, I was introduced to Robert Monroe, who wrote journeys out of the body, far journeys and ultimate journey. And a bunch of us from where I work, which are all mostly technical people, scientists or engineers thing, a whole bunch of us went out to meet Bob Monroe, and I wanted to figure out, Is this guy for real, or is he just trying to sell books? Is he just making this up to sell books, or is he the real deal? And of course, I found out that he was the real deal, and he had just built a lab, and wanted to study consciousness. He wanted to understand his out of body experiences, and he wanted to be science, not just crazy old man who did strange things. He he wanted to put it on the map, make it, make it reasonable and logical. So I volunteered, and a friend, Dennis mannerick, with me. We both volunteered and for the next eight years, actually about seven and three quarters years, we. Went out and spent anywhere from 15 to 20 hours a week with Bob Monroe. So that's 1000s of hours that we spent Bob Monroe and we told him that we couldn't study it from the outside, because that always left us wondering. We had to learn to study it from the inside. In other words, you need to teach us how to go out of body so we can explore consciousness on our own and not just study you. And he was all in favor of that. He didn't want just us to study him as a subject. He wanted us to be come very capable of out of body and exploring so then we could figure out the science of it. And that was my job. I was the physicist. Dennis was a double E electrical engineer. So my job was to figure out how it worked. And I spent the next 33 years doing research in the non physical Now what that means is that, you know, I had learned with Bob Monroe for the inner, you know, for those years that I was there, I learned how to do all the paranormal things I could go out of body whenever I wanted to. There's hundreds of hours of me. If you go to Monroe Institute, they have some of those old cassette tapes that have now been digitized, and you can hear young, 27 year old Tom Campbell reporting on the things that he saw when he was out of body. They're still they're still there. But anyway, for the next 33 years, I did experiments like change a variable and see if it changed any of the paranormal things I did, like if I were remote viewing or healing or mind to mind communications, if I change the variable the way I approached it, the way I thought about it, the way it was in my mind, what I'd had to eat before. You know, just all the variables that are there and see what affected what. So there's a lot of variables, and it took me a long time, and about 33 years later, I thought I understood consciousness pretty well. So I wrote the books my big toe. I published those in 2003 in February of 2003, and then about two or three years after that, I got another aha moment, and I realized that I could derive quantum physics from an understanding of consciousness. And once I got that, I said, Well, what else can I do? So then I very quickly figured out how I could derive relativity from that. And then I started working on all the paradoxes in science. Science, particularly physics, has a lot of paradoxes, things they know work in a certain way because their experiments tell them this is the way reality works, but they have no idea why it should work that way. It's a mystery. So there's lots of mysteries in science, and I could solve every one of them, logically, scientifically, from an understanding of consciousness. Now that that kind of closed the loop between philosophy and physics, in a way, there's a there was a part of philosophy. This goes back to Plato's cave. If you're familiar with that, you know Plato had this, this metaphor that if you're people who lived in a cave, and all they could see were there shadows of themselves on the wall, that was their reality. They didn't know about the light behind them or anything else, so they believed that those shadows on the wall were a reality, and those this philosophy was called idealism, that the world, there was something outside of just the physical, there was something more important than the physical. That was that we didn't know and we couldn't see, and that that was the real reality, and that the physical world wasn't well, of course, Buddha had the same idea. He said that the world outside the physical world was Maya, that is an illusion. So it was pretty much the same thing that Plato had said. And the idealists, eventually, as a group, all kind of came to the idea that consciousness is fundamental. But if consciousness is fundamental, then consciousness ought to be able to derive physics, because then the physical is not fundamental. But they never knew how to do that. How did we take consciousness and end up with physics? And I figured out how to do that. So that's why this is a toe, a theory of everything. And I call it my big toe, not because I'm so proud of it. It's not my ego in this at all. It's my. And because it's based on my experience, and I caution all my readers that if it's not your experience, it can't be your truth. If you read it and it's somebody else's experience, well, that's their truth, not your truth. You have to experience it before it becomes your truth. It's been a long time with a lot of experiences. And now I have,

Thomas W. Campbell 10:24

I have another goal, which is to help share this information, because in the in the next decade or two, maybe three, at the most, we're, we're going to have a big shift coming up that is, you know, everything's going to have to change or or not. You know, it's our choice. We have free will. If we don't make the changes that we need to make, then we're going to have we're going to backslide a little bit as far as the evolution of consciousness goes. And if we do make the right choices, then we will enter into a time of caring, sharing, cooperation and compassion, and the world will change its nature. Right now the world is run by the ethic of control, power force. And, of course, in our culture, control, power force means money. You have money. You have control power, force. And that's the ethic of materialism. In the material world, the physical world out there is what's real. And everything in your mind is just stuff you make up. And in the physical world, it's just there, and you take it and grab it and you just claim ownership over it, and now you can sell it to other people or use it for yourself, or whatever. So the ethic there is control, power and force. If you can control something, and you need power and force to control it and keep others from taking it away from you, then you can rise to the top. And of course, that kind of an ethic results in 95% of the resources belong to about 5% of the people, and everybody else is struggling to keep their head above water. That's kind of that's where we are now the other side, that's the fear side, the other side I call the love side, and that's a place where you care about other people, and it's more important to you that other people succeed, then really that yourself succeeds. You don't. You don't think of yourself in terms of, what do I need now and how do I get it? You think in terms of, how can I help? How can I be of service? How can I make things better? So that's where we are, and that's how consciousness evolves. We are all pieces of consciousness. That's who we are, you and I and everybody else out there. We're pieces of consciousness, and we're playing a virtual reality game where the avatars are human beings. I know that's a really big step, and that's hard for people to get their mind around, but that's the way it works out. Consciousness is fundamental. Our reality, our physical reality, is not fundamental. And scientists basically know this, physics now pretty much accepts that our reality is not material based, it's information based. That's what all of the quantum physics tells us, that reality is information based. But then the physicists don't know where to go after that, and they've been that way for 100 years. So they eventually gave up and said, No, it's just weird physics. It'll always be weird physics, and nobody will ever understand it. That was wrong. Of course, they just didn't have the new paradigm. And that new paradigm is that consciousness is fundamental this world now, these human bodies that we have, that's consciousness playing a virtual reality game. That's what reality is. Information based means. What does it mean that your reality is based on information? Well, it means that you're in your reality could be computed. Its information at the bottom level. I define consciousness as awareness with a choice. That's what consciousness is. This is simply awareness with a choice. So if consciousness is really an information system, then it can take a part of itself and create a computer information system that serves us a virtual reality. Now that virtual reality isn't one that is programmed, it's one that evolves. Consciousness is an evolving system. It's not a done thing. We're all evolving. We're pieces of this consciousness system. Yes, we are all one. There's the larger consciousness system, which is the fundamental reality, and we're pieces of that system. So let me give you this one little logical piece, and then we'll tie us all together. And that is, if you have an information system and it has bits, and a bit is just the name we call the smallest piece of information. That's called a bit. So if all the bits are random, then there is no information. Now, if the system orders some of those bits make some kind of pattern or order, then that pattern, that ordering can be a symbol for something, it could be a number or a letter or something else, you can give meaning to that little pattern, and then you can make another pattern give different meaning to that pattern. So an information system evolves by lowering its entropy. Now, entropy is a term that is a measure of disorder. So when all the bits were random, that was maximum disorder. When you rent, when you order some bits that creates information, information that you can use. So you've lowered the entropy of the system by decreasing disorder and now creating a little order so information systems evolve by lowering their entropy. Now eventually, this information system realized that it was just one monolithic thing. It was kind of stuck. It had plateaued on its on its learning, because it was just one mind. So it realized the same thing that sales realized it needed to break smaller pieces of itself off, and they all give them each free will, and now you have the potentiality for an argument something else with free will can disagree with you, and it makes millions of these things, and they can disagree with each other And with the system. So now there's possibilities that before weren't possible, different viewpoints, different ways of moving forward. That's that's where we were. We're pieces. We're one of those small pieces of this consciousness. And what we do is we're trying to evolve by lowering our entropy. Now in a social system, lowering entropy means becoming love, caring, cooperating, working together. That lowers entropy. The opposite of that is raising entropy, which is fear. Fear. If you have fear, you don't have trust. If you don't have trust, you can't work together very effectively, and that is very high entropy. It's dysfunctional. It's and it creates chaos. Well, that's why we live we live pretty much in a world full of chaos, because everybody's trying to grab with control, power and force as much as they can. Everybody's trying to use everybody else to get what they want for themselves, and that's chaotic. That is dysfunctional. So the other side, the love side, in a social system, if you have a bunch of entities with free will, then if they all cooperate to make things as good as possible for everybody, they share the resources. If somebody else is unhappy for with what they're doing, then the whole system wants to make that person happier, because they care. Everyone cares about everybody else. So that's the love side. So now we end up with a system called consciousness that is fundamental, and consciousness is evolving, and the positive direction of evolution is toward becoming love. That is where consciousness is evolving to to becoming love. The opposite of that is de evolving, and that's de evolving into fear. And we all have free will, and we're here in this virtual reality to make choices, so that that helps us evolve. It gives us meaningful, significant, important choices. So that's why we're in this virtual reality. That's why the system had to create this virtual reality for us to make meaningful choices. Because before it created this reality, and I'll tell you how, in a minute, it was like a big chat room the first virtual reality. And the virtual reality is just a rule set, just the rules that everybody's going to play this game. Here are the rules to find the game. So the first virtual reality was just communication protocols, and all these little subsets of consciousness all learn to abide by these communication rules. So they're all chatting with each other. So think of it as consciousness. Was a was kind of the source, plus lots and lots of individual pieces, and they're all in this big chat room together. Well, the choices, they're not that meaningful. The choices. Aren't aren't that difficult.

Thomas W. Campbell 20:04

It's hard to grow up. It's hard to become love in a chat room. So the system decided it needed another virtual reality that had more meaningful choices, more difficult choices, choices by which you would be forced to grow or evolve or devolve by your choices. So the way you make a virtual reality is it could come up with a rule set and a set of initial conditions, and when you hit the run button, those initial conditions change according to the rule set. Now most people will recognize that as the big bang you had initial conditions, which was a ball of plasma, very high temperature, very high pressure. And when the when the Run button was hit, that was able to expand because of the rules. There was rule sets that said, high temperature, high pressure, high pressure has to expand out. So those were the rule sets. The rule sets what we call science. That's what scientists do. They try to figure out what the rules are in this virtual reality game. That's their job is, to understand the rules. And then that evolved. So it started with the Big Bang, but it's not a big physical bang, it's a big digital bang. It was all being computed in this piece of consciousness that's configured itself as a computer. So it was computed. And of course, it started out with a particular initial conditions and rule sets. And probably the first time it tried it, it probably all fell apart. Didn't didn't run very well, didn't work. So they did just gravity, that's one of the rules. And they did just other things. They tried again, and that probably didn't work. And after about, I don't know, 10,000 a million tries, they had all of these rules just finely tuned to each other to make this thing run for a long, time, be stable for a long time, and that answers one of those big paradoxes, which is called the anthropic principle of cosmology. And several books have been written about it. And what it says is that in order for this universe to support life at all in any form, these nine or 10 things have to be just perfectly tuned to each other, or life would be impossible. And the problem that gave scientists, and why that's a big paradox, is that scientists will say that evolution has to be random, random things happen, and if they're good, they go forward, and if they're bad, they disappear. But it's random. Well, how do you randomly get nine different variables to be tuned to each other, to like, 10 decimal places? Because that's the way it is. If you, if you changed any one of them even in the 10th decimal place, the whole universe would not be livable for anything in any way. Okay, so that's one of the big paradoxes, is, how did that happen? Because you don't get nine variables all tuned to 10 decimal places randomly. That's one of those big paradoxes in in physics. So, so that then tells you about the whole thing. We are pieces of consciousness and our we're here to experience. We're playing this virtual reality because it has a lot of tough choices in it. It has a lot of moral and ethical choices in it. It has what it takes to help us make choices that will help us evolve toward becoming love, which is the natural direction in which consciousness evolves that's lowering entropy, caring for each other, sharing and we have free will, because otherwise the nothing would work. We have free will, so we get to make our choices. We can evolve or de evolve by our choices. We do things that are self serving, that are nasty, that run over other people. We de evolve, and we can de evolve more. And because this, this thing of growing up, changing who we are, lowering our entropy, becoming Love is a hard thing to do. You don't just get one shot at it. You have to try it and try it and try it again. So I call these different experience packets. Everybody else calls it reincarnation, but I try to avoid words that come with already loaded with emotional content. So anyway, so the reincarnation, the experience packets are necessary. It's a necessary logical part of this, this model so we get in, we make choices, and hopefully we evolve and don't de evolve and we. It back in again, because the way forward is we have to change who we are. It's not a matter of what we think. You can read all the books, you can you can understand all the philosophy and still not grow up at all. You have to change who you are. At the core, it has to change at the being level, is what I call it. It's not about acting kind. It's about being kind. Anybody can act kind, particularly if they're hoping other people are seeing them and they're getting credit for it. You know, they can act kind, but being kind is what it takes to lower your entropy. So it's a difficult process, and you don't you know you when you die, and if you like, I can explain what happens when you die, because I've been through that process a lot, and I've seen it from different sides. But anyway, when you

Jannecke Øinæs 25:58

Hey guys, I want to jump in here to give my thanks for being part of the Wisdom From North community. Your support and engagement means the world to us. We put so much passion, so much love into these episodes, and my intention is really to be part of this great shift of consciousness, to do what I can do with this channel, to help people expand their consciousness, love themselves more, follow their purpose and shine their light. So if you haven't yet subscribed, I would love for you to do so. Thank you so much. You'll find the link somewhere here below, and now let's go back to the episode. Can you just elaborate on that, is that because you've had a near death experience, or you've followed others in a shared death experience, or how come you have that knowledge too.

Thomas W. Campbell 26:51

Well, all of the above, the first ways that I did it was that I was I was put in that reality frame. I call it the transition reality, where you end up after you die. And I was put there by the larger conscious system part of my training. And I was there watching people who had just died as they entered the system. And I was interacting with him, and I had to do this every night for about a month, every time I closed my eyes, Bing, I was there. And for about every night for a month, I did that until I got a sense of it. And that was a long, long time ago. But since then, since the Bob Monroe thing, and me understanding and being able to do the paranormal things. I have multiple times been with a person who was dying, attached my mind to their mind, and then just followed them through the process, so you can just be part of their all all consciousness is netted, and that includes your dogs and cats, as well as other people. All consciousnesses is is netted so you can connect to a consciousness, feel what they feel, see, what they see, smell, what they smell, taste, what they taste. You can connect to them. And then when they die, you can just stick with them, and you can see the transition that they make, and go right into that transition reality with them coming in from that side. And then I also, like I said, I was put in it by the large cancer system on the other side so that I could see those coming in. So I looked at it from both sides so I understand what happens when you die, because I've been through that process from both ends. But anyway,

Jannecke Øinæs 28:37

wow, you have really inside information, I got to say,

Thomas W. Campbell 28:42

inside information exactly, yeah, the larger consciousness system has put me in a lot of places, just for me to learn. And part of this shift that's coming up where we are to evolve our quality of our consciousness, part of my thing, and why I'm here, is to help push that. And I'm not the only one. You're part of that too, pushing that. You know, there's 1000s, 10s of 1000s of us trying to help other people grow up, see that love is, is what's going on that is the positive direction of evolution to help us make the right choices over the next couple of decades to end up in a much better, more helpful, much more functional world where everybody has the maximum personal Freedom and we all work for each other. That's where we're that's where we're going, and we've finally gotten to the point where that's possible for us. The human race has, for the first time, gotten to a position where they can take big steps in growing up, big steps and becoming love. It couldn't happen. Before we were too scattered, we were too separate. But with the Internet and other technology, we've gone from a bunch of disparate pieces that really didn't care about each other. You know, there was a big earthquake someplace in some country. I don't even know where it is in the world, and 100,000 people died. But not my problem. I don't know anything about it. You know, people were removed from each other. Now, if there's a big earthquake on the other side of the world, everybody on the planet sees it up close and personal, looks right into the eyes of that poor child standing there on the beach who lost his whole family. We all can experience that. So we've gone from a bunch of people who really didn't care much about each other because we were too removed, to a family and are trying to deal with that and see ourselves as a family, as a global family called humanity. And in this struggle, now that we can see that and that people can express a better idea now, and a billion people will hear about it the next, you know, in the next day, some of them on the other side of the world are asleep, but within 24 hours, a billion people can hear about it. Well, we didn't have that before. We've had people who understood this. I'm not saying things that other people haven't said. The Buddha said all these things, you know? He said that this was an illusion. Well, I say it's a virtual reality. They're basically the same thing. He was,

Jannecke Øinæs 31:36

if I may just jump the answer, go ahead, yes, if I may jump in. So I understand, from my perspective, your theory, and linking it up to what you started speaking about, the afterlife, what happens when you die? So if we're in a virtual reality game, I'm playing a character, or I'm a player, so when I die, will I then sort of come back to the real me, like the bigger soul that I am? Is that what will happen? And that that soul, or the higher self, is the one who sort of is the computer, is my computer, in a way.

Thomas W. Campbell 32:21

Okay, that's mostly right. It's a little, little issues here and there on the side, but that's mostly correct. You are, you are a piece of consciousness. That's who you are, and that's the same thing as your soul or your spirit. Consciousness is your soul. It is your spirit. It's that thing that animates your your body makes all the choices for the avatar. So your avatar is just computed. The human body is just the thing that's been computed, the real life force in that, you know, we say that human body has a life force. That's you, that's the consciousness. Okay, now the computer computes what the consciousness, you know, with the what the character does, what the avatar does, but it's the consciousness that makes all the choices. It's a consciousness that chooses love or chooses fear, that's the consciousness. So, yes, when the body dies, then you return to that piece of consciousness that you are, and I call that an individuated unit of consciousness, and you reintegrate with that. And then that individuated unit of consciousness, which is a piece of this larger consciousness system, it's a subset. So now you as a individuated unit of consciousness, you partition off a part of yourself. And I call that a Free Will awareness unit. I just make these things up the names, but it's a free will awareness unit. You partition a part of your consciousness off, and it's that free will awareness unit. Then that becomes the conscious player of a new avatar. So you see, that's the way that works. So there's this individuated unit of consciousness that is kind of the summary of all of your lifetimes. Let's say you've had 10,000 lifetimes, and in those 10,000 lifetimes, you've been 10,000 different people, and this individuated unit of consciousness can look through all of that. It's all there to see. Oh, here's a trend. Let's see. There seems to be a trend here with this problem or that problem. So that's what we need to work on. So then you die, you go back into that individual unit of consciousness, the partition of the free will, awareness, unitition just comes down. You in, you reintegrate with your individuated unit of consciousness, and that's what then kind of negotiates the next incarnation. So then you go have another one, and then when that one ends up, well, you come back, and hopefully, each time you come back, a little wiser, a little higher quality of consciousness, a little lower entropy consciousness. Consciousness, because when you have your next incarnation, you start with that quality of consciousness that you've earned up to that point. So let's say your last incarnation was a really good one. You made a lot of really good choices, so you leveled up in in quality of consciousness. Now the next one, your next incarnation, you start at that higher level. But you don't start with any of the intellectual information, only with that higher level of consciousness. You have to then as a new entity, or, I mean, as a as a free will awareness, you're making choices for for a new avatar, you run into new situations, and you have to make choices, and you can express that higher quality, but the choices you make, but if you make poor choices, then you'll start to evolve. Make good choices, you'll start to evolve, but your probability of making good choices is higher because you've gained a higher quality of consciousness. So that's how that that system works. So, yes, it's your individuated unit of consciousness. Is the thing that grows and evolves, that's really who you are, and a piece of that is your local consciousness. That is that piece of of your individual unit of consciousness making choices for that particular avatar that you that you're in now. So that's the way it works. And we we grow up. So I sometimes people don't like this idea, because they have this idea. Oh, the people I love, the people my children and my parents and my best friends and my brothers and sisters, we can all meet in the in the after World, and all stay together forever. But it doesn't work like that. All that information is there. It's still a part of the individuated unit of consciousness. But when you create a new free will awareness unit, that's a new unit, and when that dies, that unit goes away, but you have all the information that defined you is still there. So you can go back and say, I'd like to you get a medium or you can do it yourself. It's not hard to do. You can go back and say, I want to talk to my great great grandmother. And sure enough, you can go and you can talk to your great great grandmother. And great great grandmother is exactly as she was, wears the same clothes, has the same voice, knows everything, can tell you all about that part of your history and what is she? She's information, just what you are, your consciousness. You're an information, your information system. So your great, great grandmother is information that's been saved, and the larger consciousness system can play by, constrained by that information, to interact with you, the great, great, great granddaughter, and you can talk about current events and about your children and who's going to win the next election, and they'll be able to talk with you with that so it it seems as though people never die, they just keep going so you will be you forever. But that's not the case. You are a new free will awareness unit that goes off and logs on to an infant and that then that infant becomes all of your all of your experience. When that infant looks at light coming through mom's belly and hears noises and can hear dad's voice in a music playing, all of that is brand new experience, the only experience it has. So it believes that it is that avatar, because that avatar is 100% of its experience. So it believes it is the Avatar, but it isn't. And that avatar dies. It goes back into the IUC. The IUC finds another place to have, you know, to incarnate that will help it learn the things it needs to learn. It goes and does that, and it goes with its quality, but not with any information. So then that cycle starts all over again. So that's the way that works. And some people are really unhappy because they're not really going to be there with those loved ones. But that's not true. They are. They are going to be those loved ones are just like they are. It's a piece of the larger conscious system. It's information. There's nothing more real than information. Information is as real as it gets. That's what defines us as well. So I'm information, your information, but we're information inside this piece of consciousness. So that's how the system works. I could go on and on for hours doing all of this, but I'm going to throw it back to you to let you ask the questions that you that you want to ask. I've probably just, I probably just blown you away from all the. The questions that you had that you were going to ask me, they're probably sitting on a piece of paper someplace, and they are, and now they all disappeared, and you got 1000 more questions.

Jannecke Øinæs 40:12

That is true, and you just answered so so many of my questions that are on my notebook right here. So where to go from here? Since you've been out of body, and I've been out of body myself, I know a bit about it, and it feels very real to me, what are your thoughts about what the astral plane is and what dreams are? I've never fully understood well, these things are hard to understand, but what the astral plane is, I'd love to hear your perspective.

Thomas W. Campbell 40:48

Okay, well, actually, there is no such place as the astral as the astral plane. What happens is that people go out of body and they have experiences, and they come back and they try to make sense of those experiences. So they they really don't have the language. Our language is a language based on the objective world. You know, it's to describe things in the objective world, describing the things in consciousness. We don't have the concepts and the words for it. So we come back from an out of body experience and we say, Wow, what was that? And if we do a lot of those things, we start making up a story in our mind that makes the most sense to us to describe it. And then if we do a good job of that, then others hear that, and they pick up that same model. So the astral plane is just one of those descriptions that we've made up. And now it's kind of in our collective consciousness. We we all kind of share those sorts of concepts, but there's not really a space called the astral plane that doesn't exist that way. There's just consciousness. And you as a piece of consciousness can do everything that consciousness can do. You have all the abilities that the larger conscious system has, except you have them in a much smaller package. You don't have the capacity that it has. It's the whole thing, but you're a piece of it. And you can do everything consciousness can do. You can. You can connect mind to mind with any other consciousness doesn't have to be human. You can you can travel around unconscious. You can explore. There's other virtual realities out there, besides ours. We're not the only virtual reality that's out there. There's other virtual realities. There's other entities that aren't in any of these virtual realities. They live elsewhere. So there's dreams. Now, what the dream world is is that you're here to make choices, and by those choices evolve or to evolve the quality of your consciousness. And you work all day at that, and you work all night at that. Your dream reality is just another virtual reality, and it's not any more or less real than this virtual reality that we call the physical universe. That's our virtual reality that we play in. We're on one little planet in a big universe, but the whole universe is our virtual reality. There are other universes elsewhere. So when you sleep at night, which is a requirement of the body that you you give it a rest, to regroup itself in its energy, then you still work. You go into a different reality. You go into the dream reality, and that dream reality is different. It has a different rule set. Here, our rule set kind of knows every energy exchange that happens as part of our rule set in a dream reality, we can teleport, we can fly, we can do all sorts of things that we can't do here, but we're still doing the same thing. We're making choices. Every choice you make in a dream will help you evolve or devolve, just like the choices you make here, whether you're in this virtual reality or that virtual reality, or some other virtual reality, in some other universe, it doesn't matter. All the choices you make are for the same reason. You make a choice based on who you are at the core your quality, and then that choice helps you evolve or devolve, whether it's toward love or toward fear. And the wonderful thing about the dream reality that makes it so valuable a place to make choices is that when you're in your dream reality, you leave your intellect behind for the most part. Now, if you take your intellect with you, that's called a lucid dream, that's different, but just a normal dream. You don't take your intellect alone. So you are who you are at the core. So in that dream reality, the choices that you make are the choices that you really would make at your core. That's that's you. So if you've done things in that dream reality that are really awful, well, that's you. You've got that. Awfulness in you, because the choices you make in your dream are a reflection of who you are at the core. Now, if you've done some really nice things in that dream, you've been helpful, you've been you know, wanting to know, how could you help, and how can you serve, and what can you do for others, then you will have evolved by making those choices, so it's another space in which we get to do the same thing we're doing here. But the advantage is one, we can't game the system with our intellects. Try to do what we think we should do, like pretending to be kind we actually are, or we are not kind in the dream reality, because our intellect isn't there to play image, it's just you who are there. And also that dream reality will give you experiences that you couldn't have here. If you had them here, it would create a lot of dysfunction. Let's say you have a dream and you are in this five story apartment building. You and 100 other people are in this apartment building, and you realize that the building's on fire and no alarms have been set yet. You just look outside and you can see fire coming up from the bottom of the building. Now you have a choice. Do you run out of the building? Do you grab your stuff and run out of the building to save yourself? Or do instead, you go up to the fifth floor and try to wake everybody up and tell them the building's on fire, and then the fourth floor, and then so on, and finally, getting your stuff and taking it out. Well, that's a choice. Do you care mostly about yourself, or do you care about other people? Are you willing to risk yourself in order to save a lot of other people. That's a choice. Now, to have that choice here in this physical reality, was cause all kinds of mayhem, because they're all it all matters. You know, these are the people in your dream. It's just information. Well, it's information here too, but it's information at a tighter level, tighter rule set there. These are just, it's just all arranged for you. It's like you're in this, this little vignette where, where it's been set up for you to make a choice. And you make your choice, you run out of the building by yourself, or you go in and wake everybody up. And then when it's done, dream ends and you go on to the next dream that was just given to you. It was a it was a set of experiences given to you that would be hard to give to you in this reality without affecting a whole lot of other people, but this way, it just affects you. So the dream reality is a very good additional learning space. I call this reality a entropy reduction trainer for individuated units of consciousness. We're in a trainer here, just like pilots get in a flight trainer many, many hours before they ever take, you know, get in a real airplane. So it's the same sort of thing. We're in an entropy reduction trainer for individuated units of consciousness to grow up, and our dreams are just another part of that training process, and our out of bodies are just another another way that we can explore consciousness. And a good way to think of an out of body is that here we have a multiplayer game. We're playing with a lot of other players. So what we do affects others, and what others do affect us. Most of the out of bodies are one on one games. This a multiplayer game. It's a single player game. When you do when you go out of body for the most part, oh, you can interact with others, all right. I most always do interact with others, but those others are just like all the other people that were in that apartment building, those others are there to interact with you in a way that gives you choices and gives you opportunity to learn and to grow and understand so mostly an out of body is a one on one video game as well as this, but not always. I did go out of body with Dennis. We went out of body together, and we saw a lot of things together. We had conversations with each other. Bob had that recorded back in the lab. We were in individual rooms that we couldn't hear each other at all. We were in isolation booths, and he recorded what Dennis said, and he recorded separately what I said, and he rewound the tapes and started them at the same time, put them to put them so they're synchronized. And then there's Dennis and I having conversations with each other, even though we were totally isolated acoustically from each other. So we had gotten together out of body, and had this long trip, things we saw, people we talked to, things we did, and it was all there. And we obviously were together for all that, because we were communicating.

Jannecke Øinæs 49:55

So it's fascinating. Yeah. You're not like an ordinary physicist, and I'm curious. I'm curious, what your colleague have they have reacted and responded to you speaking about these things, are you noticing a difference and a development there in a positive way?

Thomas W. Campbell 50:17

Yeah, it's like this, the physicists that that I get to work with, or know you know that that actually take the time to look at my theory, my sense of reality, almost always after they understand it. They agree with it. They like it because it solves so many problems in physics that are unsolvable, and the solutions don't have any other solution like that. That principle I was telling you about how all of these had, all these numbers get so tightly, you know, put together with such precision, and you can't do that randomly. So that's a big problem, and this solves it, and it solves all the other problems. That explains why quantum physics is weird. See, quantum physics will tell you that if you go down and look at the bottom, the bottom part, you keep digging down into reality. You don't end up with smaller particles. You end up with with mathematics, you end up with probability. It's information, it's all probability. Based in quantum physics, you know, they have this problem with the probability wave collapses to form a particle. Well, that doesn't make any sense. A probability wave is a piece of mathematics, that's all. It's how does a piece of mathematics collapse to make a physical particle? Again, it doesn't make any sense, but that is the metaphor they use to describe what quantum mechanics does. But they don't understand it. And my model tells them exactly why the model is probability based. And they also don't understand, in that same double slit experiment that the observer effect. How is it that, if you're that, if you have someone who knows, well, I'll call it the which way data, which slit the particle went through? There's two slits in this experiment, and the particle goes through one of the other. If you know the which way data, then you get one result in the experiment, and if you don't know the which way data, you get a different result. So how is it that if a human knows this information, the experiment produces a different result? That's called the observer paradox. It's another one of these paradoxes that they don't really understand, and they call it the measurement problem so and it has a few other names too, but my model says exactly why that works and how it has to work that way. And it's a whole lot of other things that are like that. The why is the speed of light a constant? Relativity is really relativity because of the fact that the speed of light is a constant. Nothing else is like that. Everything else. If you take a flashlight, and a flashlight is moving this way at a certain velocity, and then you turn it on and the light goes out, every other thing you'd add the speed of light to the speed that the flashlight was going its source. You know, that's the way it works. If you're in a car, and your car is going 10 mile an hour, and you put your hand up and you throw a ball another 10 mile an hour, you know, toward the front of the car, then the ball is going 20 mile an hour relative to the ground, because the car's speed and you're throwing speed add together, not with light. With light, it goes C speed of light always, never anything less, never anything more. Exactly the same speed to 15 decimal places, always. So why is it that works like that? See, that's a big mystery, and I can tell them exactly why it has to work like that, just like I can tell them why it has to be probability based. So physicists who actually listen and think about it tend to agree with it, but that is not most physicists. Most physicists, when they hear it, because nonsense that doesn't make any sense. How could this be a virtual reality? That's crazy. So no, physicists haven't been falling over themselves to get in line here, but I think they probably will in the next decade or so. And the reason I say that is the younger physicists coming up, they know about virtual reality. They've played virtual reality games. They understand how real they can be. These virtual reality games are very convincing if you're in a virtual reality game and suddenly in that game, your world tilts. You will probably fall on the floor where you're standing with your headset on and your goggles and everything, because your body just knows that the world just tilted. So they're very real, and they're very convincing, and it makes good sense. Once you understand that consciousness is the computer, you are a piece of consciousness. You are the player. And once you get that, then suddenly Virtual Reality makes sense. Now there's other people who are kind of in favor of our reality being virtual, but they don't really understand how it works. They say we're we're a game that's being made, that's been put together by our future selves, and none of that really makes any sense. That's all nonsense. So the only way that the virtuality actually works as if we are a piece of consciousness, consciousness is fundamental, and this is a virtual reality to give consciousness an opportunity to make meaningful choices, so that that then makes sense. So the physicists that are into it, you know, I published a paper in a physics journal in 2017 I think it was 2017 and that was a peer reviewed journal. It's the International Journal of quantum foundations, and it got accepted, and it had in there a set of experiments, quantum physics experiments that could be done that would help. It would help. What do we call it's not prove is not the right word. Proof is for mathematicians and whiskey makers. Science doesn't run on proof. Science runs on evidence. You collect evidence for things. Well, this would increase the evidence for one, this being virtual reality into that the that the rendering engine is consciousness, the thing that makes the virtual is created in consciousness. And I've tried to do these experiences. I raised a bunch of money, and I was unable to do the first experiment I wanted to do because the the experimentalists weren't able to actually do it. You know, some experiments are just too hard to do in the lab. They don't know how to do it, but time will probably solve that problem. And I have some other ones that I would do, but they're very expensive. That first experiment I tried to do, I did a separate one, just to show people that we could do real quantum physics experiments, which are not simple to do. So I picked one and I did that, but that cost about five years and over $100,000 and the ones that I'd like to do next are probably two or three times more complicated, so we're collecting money for that, but when those experiments are done, then they will help convince scientists that this is the real deal, because it will just lend more evidence that This is that this is the way it is.

Jannecke Øinæs 58:02

So I think that will really change everything you know, when we have more evidence that it all starts with consciousness, which I deeply believe myself, that changes the whole game. I believe

Thomas W. Campbell 58:16

it does. And, you know, I call physicists the high priests of Western culture, and I call them that because the job of the high priests has always been to tell everybody else what to believe. That's what the part that's what the high priests do. And now, in our culture today, it's the scientists that tell everybody else what to believe about reality and the nature of reality. So when the high priests of Western culture, and now Western culture is culture everywhere. It's world culture. So when, when the physicists, as the high priest, tell those everyone that, yes, this is a virtual reality and consciousness is the computer, then that will make a huge difference. Will go from being relegated to the margins to mainstream, and when that happens, it won't be very long before we find that kinder, gentler world that we're talking about, because once people understand that the concept of materialism and determinism is creates an ethic of control, power force, and they look around and realize that's exactly what they're living in, and that just is part of this materialist viewpoint. And the materialist viewpoint isn't something that's taught. It's part of our culture. People just take in that, that this world is a material world, and it's fundamentally just this world made out of material stuff. And they don't know exactly what's going on in the mind, but they know that this material force is the real thing. And that's in a material world, it's control power. Force is the only ethic that you have. That's the nature of materialism. You got material world. Those are called resources, and whoever has the power to grab them and hold them floats to the top and has power. And those who can't control them with force, then they fall into the bottom of the structure here. That's the nature. And it's because we have this innate sense of this being a material reality that we put up with, that we see that. We see the very wealthy on top and the very unwealthy, the very poor on the bottom. And we say, well, that's that's life. That's just the way life is. You know, some people, you know, are lucky or dynamic or greedy or whatever, and they make it. And there's a bunch of people in between who make it pretty well, but better than what's on the bottom. But we see that, and we see that that's the normal way of things, that's just the natural way of of life. Some we see the critters the same way, you know, some of the critters rise up to the top. Some of them survive, okay, in their own little niche, and many of them are are at the bottom, the feeds everything else. So that's the nature. So we accept that as natural and the way it needs to be, but when we see that that is not natural at all, the world isn't made that way. It's not a physical world. It's a world of consciousness and consciousness, he falls not through control power force, but through love and caring and cooperation. And suddenly people will realize that there's a better way to live, a better way to exist. And they won't. They won't see the grab, the grabby, the greedy and the power control and force as being a natural process that you just have to live with. They'll see it as wrong. That's not the way the world is made. That's not the nature of our reality at all. The nature of reality is the nature of consciousness, and consciousness is about lowering entropy, not raising so it'll make a really big difference everywhere. And I think it won't take that long. I think if we can convince 10% of the people, it's probably a little less than a billion people, that this is this is the case, then that 10% will pull the other 90% in very quickly. Because when you do have this ethic of caring and sharing, you become a happy person. You smile a lot, you're successful. People look up to you. It's a very positive thing. And if 10% of the people were happy and positive and caring and whatever the rest would say, I want to be like that, and it wouldn't take long before the rest would fall into place. So we don't have to convert everybody at once. We just have to get enough people that it starts to snowball as the way to B, a better attitude, a better philosophy, a new paradigm, instead of the paradigm of control, power, force, material world, all research based, all what they call it, scarcity based, as opposed to abundance based. And we'll make that shift, I think, in the next couple of decades. Here, let me put it a different way, we have the potential to make that shift in another couple of decades. And I think the people who will lead that will be the scientists, because they're the high priests and will tell everybody else what is real. So getting them to come along is kind of a first step. And I see that that happening. And the reason I think it will happen is the truth is not delicate. The truth will eventually rise to the top. And this model that I have actually is much better physics. It's a more complete and more general physics of what they have. It answers all of their paradoxes, and it's logical. It is science. It's good science. It's not based on assumptions. It's based on logical not not on this could happen, but this has to happen. It's that kind of a logic. It's not saying that this is possible. It's saying that this is the way it is. So that's why I think the next two or three decades will be pivotal, Pivotal, pivotal to the human beings, because this knowledge will start to spread. People will, you know, that's what we're doing. We're spreading, we're spreading this knowledge. And there's 1000s of people who are also spreading it, and in a decade, it'll start to catch on, because it actually works. You know, when you tell people that the reason they're unhappy is because of fear, it's the fear our culture creates. Fear. It makes us fearful. Our. Materialism makes us fearful. All of this adds to our fear, and that's what the problem is. And if you let go of that fear and become positive, become part of the solution, rather than part of the problem that's your life will lighten up and you'll be more successful. And what you'll find is that all the things you really need will fall right in front of your feet, just as you need them. And life is like that. If you're on the track toward love, they call that synchronicity, but the synchronicity works for people who are doing it right, who are following a path of love, things happen for you,

Jannecke Øinæs 1:05:43

and that's a beautiful way to end this episode. And I know you have to go. You have another interview right after this, but there is some final questions that I want to ask you that I ask all my guests, and the first one is, and we'll be speaking about love. But what is self love to you, Tom.

Thomas W. Campbell 1:06:01

I'd say you have to like yourself. Yeah, love is about other it's what you can give. It's your caring, it's your love. You give love to other people, and you don't have to have anything necessarily come back. It's not Oh, I will love you. If you do this for me, I will do that for you, that's a bargain, that's a deal, and that's not love. Love is unconditional, and you just give it away, because that's the way you feel. And once you've given it, you don't take it back. Sometimes that situation changes, but you always have that love. You always hope that person is doing okay, for some reason, even if you couldn't live with the person. So love is always unconditional love. Love has to be about other. But now like, it's not just given. Like has to be earned. If you like somebody, they have to be likable. And if people like you, it's because you're likable. You earn another person's life, and you have to like yourself, because if you don't like yourself, then you are not really going to be good for anybody else. It's not about your image. It's about who you really are, and if you don't like it, change it. That's what I call growing up, you got to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and be more to where you like yourself better, because if you don't, you fall into that deep hole of self pity and victimhood, and you feel sorry. Oh, woe is me. All my luck is bad luck, and you kind of get stuck in that place, and that will ruin your life, you know. So that's what I would say about the you know, loving yourself, liking yourself is essential. Loving yourself isn't like, Oh, I am so wonderful. I just love me. That's called self centeredness, and that's to be avoided. But I know the I know the way people mean that loving yourself means you have to like yourself. You can't have negativity towards yourself, or that will destroy yourself. Well.

Jannecke Øinæs 1:08:09

Thank you so much, Thomas, this has been enlightening and inspiring and lots of knowledge. I think I have to listen to our conversation again to get all the pieces right, in my mind, this was highly, highly interesting. Thank you so much for coming to the show. And just lastly, could you share? Where can people find you if they want to learn more?

Thomas W. Campbell 1:08:31

Yeah, do you want to learn more? There's several places. One is a website, and it'll explain the things that I've rushed over here in a lot more detail, and that is, www.my-big-toe.com now also I have another, a nonprofit corporation that is also studying consciousness. It's studying conscious AI and a lot of other things. It's doing a marvelous job of trying to get the larger reality, the larger group of people, to see that the world is a more interesting and more beautiful place than they than they think it is. And go to that is cusac.org, www, C, U S A, C, Center for the unification of science and consciousness, C, U S, A, C.org, O, R G will take you. There lots of things going on. If you want to get involved in it. You can get involved with the hub kind of works with me, and you can get involved with [email protected] and the last place is to my YouTube channel, which probably has roughly 2000 hours of my video, or 3000 hours of my video. So that's very daunting to come in 1000s of hours of video, but I have two things that will help you out. One. As a search tool, you can search all of those 1000s of hours by subject. The other thing is that I have a an AI there called AI guy. An AI guy was trained on all of my work. He even speaks in my voice, so he'll sound just like me, and the answer, see, gives you will be just like my answer. So you can always talk to me whenever you want, with AI guy,

Jannecke Øinæs 1:10:26

our new AI world, it's fascinating. Was possible now, but I had the real Tom here, and it was a pleasure having you here today. Thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing your perspectives.

Thomas W. Campbell 1:10:38

Oh, you're you're quite welcome, like I said in the beginning, shared information is what it's all about. We are all in this together, and we all will sink or swim. We all have to abide by the choices that we as a race make. So let's try to help as many people as possible see the positive side, the love side, the caring side, that that is where our future lies.